GM Adopting NACS Tesla Charge Ports on Its Vehicles Starting 2025!

[Crimson_Fate]

In August, Tesla announced a "membership program" for non-tesla EVs. If they become a member, then they will have a lower price per kWh.

I belive this refers to today where tesla has the magic dock usage and everyine needs to use a Tesla App. The question for 2024 and beyond with these new deals, does this new deal force all GM/FORD transactions through their own apps.

 

[BayouCityBob]

Tesla power will probably exceed Tesla auto sales at some point says Elon. If Tesla makes $.05 on each kWhr in and out of each vehicle just to run software that will really add up.

If Tesla makes 5 cents on each kwh it is extortion. (Electricity only costs 10 - 12 cents on most of the the country.) But your point is fair, the fuel retailing business can be a profitable business to be sure.

 

[Tinker71]

If Tesla makes 5 cents on each kwh it is extortion. (Electricity only costs 10 - 12 cents on most of the the country.) But your point is fair, the fuel retailing business can be a profitable business to be sure.
[/QUOTE
Tesla already charges $.44 per kWhr plus at superchargers even in Utah were power is dirt cheap. This is mostly due to the highly fluctuating demand of a supercharger station.
The wear and tear on a battery cycling between 30 and 80% is pretty minimal. A dynamic pricing model probably AI driven where the battery owner can choose what time they want xx charge, how low can they discharge at xx price would be worth many billions. The plugs will be the standard for level 2 chargers at work and home now. Other manufacturers can build charging stations but Tesla will have a leg up on the AI, a fleet of Tesla's and the contracts to buy and sell stored energy at premium times.

 

[kev12345]

If Tesla makes 5 cents on each kwh it is extortion. (Electricity only costs 10 - 12 cents on most of the the country.) But your point is fair, the fuel retailing business can be a profitable business to be sure.

nothing is stopping anyone else from competing

 

[CyberGus]

nothing is stopping anyone else from competing

Nothing...except everything lol

 

[RandyS]

If Tesla makes 5 cents on each kwh it is extortion. (Electricity only costs 10 - 12 cents on most of the the country.) But your point is fair, the fuel retailing business can be a profitable business to be sure.

The energy prices may be near what you quoted, but many utilities have "Demand charges" on their commercial electric rates (I worked for a utility for over 30 years). This demand charge can be in the neighborhood of $20-$35 per kw peak per month. So a 20 stall supercharger site that sets a monthly peak at the site of 1.5 MW or 2 MW would have to pay a monthly demand charge of, say, 2,000 x $30 or $60K per month just for the demand charge. Numbers could be higher, depending on the number of stalls and the kw peak set. So when you combine the lower energy costs and the demand charges at a site, billing out 30-40 cents per kWh to drivers is entirely reasonable to cover the costs of the electric bill.

My observation, from years of experience, is that Tesla pays for the charging hardware and installation/maintenance and then recovers the approximate energy price from the drivers. It is definitely more economical for Tesla to try to increase charging station throughput kWh at sites with additional vehicles or time of use rates that are lower in the midnight hours, since that only increases the lower energy charges on their bill and doesn't really increase the demand charge more than what it already is...More throughput means lower overall energy prices.

It's not unusual for a modestly sized supercharger site to have an electric bill that is over $1M per year...My point is that Tesla would be losing money if they only charged 10 to 12 cents per kWh for the energy at Supercharger sites..

Hope this is helpful...

 

[anionic1]

Its really great to see companies humbling themselves to use the better design/tech. Its like the apple charger vs usb whatever. its just a better design. I wish the whole world would just get over it and work with apple to make it the standard.

 

[anionic1]

If Tesla makes 5 cents on each kwh it is extortion. (Electricity only costs 10 - 12 cents on most of the the country.) But your point is fair, the fuel retailing business can be a profitable business to be sure.

I just set up Tesla charging at out office and they charge $0.01/kWh to manage the software and tesla accounts. I don't know what their cost are on the super chargers. To purchase a supercharger its about $80k for the equipment. At out office we just did level 2 chargers at $350 ea. Obviously there is a much higher capital cost at superchargers so it wouldn't surprise me if its $0.05/kWh.

 

[electricAK]

My main question is this: If Tesla's network grows to become the dominant (but not the only) source of fast charging for ALL EV's, would it be illegal (antitrust? monopolistic practices?) for them to raise the per-kWh rate for non-tesla vehicles in a few years once everyone is dependent on them? Seems like an incredible amount of power to hold over the competition and drive people to buy Tesla EV's. No advertising needed!

Since EV's can always charge somewhere else (unlike gasoline which you can ONLY get from a gas station), it doesn't seem like a true monopoly, nor is supercharging a public utility that should be regulated, nor is it necessary for commerce. The Tesla network is just a perk that the other OEM's are paying to access. But Tesla controls the rate and has all the leverage.

 

[HaulingAss]

My main question is this: If Tesla's network grows to become the dominant (but not the only) source of fast charging for ALL EV's, would it be illegal (antitrust? monopolistic practices?) for them to raise the per-kWh rate for non-tesla vehicles in a few years once everyone is dependent on them? Seems like an incredible amount of power to hold over the competition and drive people to buy Tesla EV's. No advertising needed!

Since EV's can always charge somewhere else (unlike gasoline which you can ONLY get from a gas station), it doesn't seem like a true monopoly, nor is supercharging a public utility that should be regulated, nor is it necessary for commerce. The Tesla network is just a perk that the other OEM's are paying to access. But Tesla controls the rate and has all the leverage.

No, monopolies, in and of themselves, are not illegal. What's illegal is a company abusing their dominant position to prevent other competition from participating. But it's not illegal to have a monopoly simply because no one else is as efficient or as good as you.

BTW, in North America, Tesla is already the dominant fast charging network for all EV's. The fact that a minority of EV's are incompatible with the standard doesn't change that fact. However, now we know all Ford and GM EV's will be compatible with the Tesla standard, which simply means the Supercharger Network will almost certainly become even more dominant as non-Tesla join in on the fun. Nothing illegal about it unless Tesla started abusing their dominance with anti-competitive business practices, something that is the anti-thesis of how Tesla behaves in the industry.

 

[BayouCityBob]

I just set up Tesla charging at out office and they charge $0.01/kWh to manage the software and tesla accounts. I don't know what their cost are on the super chargers. To purchase a supercharger its about $80k for the equipment. At out office we just did level 2 chargers at $350 ea. Obviously there is a much higher capital cost at superchargers so it wouldn't surprise me if its $0.05/kWh.

Maybe it is just a language gap. When the poster said "Tesla makes 0.05" I understood him to mean profit (i.e. net income) of 5 cents. which would be, IMO, crazy. A fee of 5 cents on top of the electricity would be a super good deal. The point is that a reasonable return on capital is absolutely appropriate and necessary to encourage the build out.

 

[anionic1]

Maybe it is just a language gap. When the poster said "Tesla makes 0.05" I understood him to mean profit (i.e. net income) of 5 cents. which would be, IMO, crazy. A fee of 5 cents on top of the electricity would be a super good deal. The point is that a reasonable return on capital is absolutely appropriate and necessary to encourage the build out.

One thing that is important to note is that a typical BEV costs an equivalent of about $2 to $2.5 per gallon, assuming about $0.25/kwh to charge, when compared to a car that gets about 30 mpg, which would be typical for a modern ICE with a size around the model 3 or Y. And, its much less convenient to charge. Many people I know really had to adjust for the inconvenient charging when they drive a lot and cant rely on charging over night at home. So Tesla needs to keep their charging cost very competitive as that really is the main selling point of an EV. In fact EV cost of ownership falls in and out the lead by the EPAs standards. Most people don't buy EVs because they care about the planet IMO.

 

[Tinker71]

One thing that is important to note is that a typical BEV costs an equivalent of about $2 to $2.5 per gallon, assuming about $0.25/kwh to charge, when compared to a car that gets about 30 mpg, which would be typical for a modern ICE with a size around the model 3 or Y. And, its much less convenient to charge. Many people I know really had to adjust for the inconvenient charging when they drive a lot and cant rely on charging over night at home. So Tesla needs to keep their charging cost very competitive as that really is the main selling point of an EV. In fact EV cost of ownership falls in and out the lead by the EPAs standards. Most people don't buy EVs because they care about the planet IMO.

We need chargers at work. Anywhere someone can plug in for 4 hours. Work could be a benefit or some environmental offset. Or deducted from pay I suppose. I don't see the benefit for shopping centers etc.

 

[firsttruck]

We need chargers at work. Anywhere someone can plug in for 4 hours. Work could be a benefit or some environmental offset. Or deducted from pay I suppose. I don't see the benefit for shopping centers etc.

Yup, most jobs should have EV charging at work. Help workers who live in apartments too. Primary power source should be solar panels. Also used for building air conditioning.

Now in U.S., with Tesla connector becoming the standard, this should reduce resistance to installing EV chargers at work.

 

[anionic1]

We need chargers at work. Anywhere someone can plug in for 4 hours. Work could be a benefit or some environmental offset. Or deducted from pay I suppose. I don't see the benefit for shopping centers etc.

I just put in 6 Tesla chargers at my office. Tesla has a commercial deal where if you install 6 or more chargers you get on their business account and they manage all the payments through the Tesla app. We select what people pay.