Ford EV will gain access to Tesla Superchargers and come with standard NACS ports starting 2025!

[firsttruck]

Wasn't it the head of GM that said they don't think they will actually make money on ev's till 2030...
....

The statement the CEO of GM made was worse than that.

They said GM would not be able to profitable release a $30K-40K vehicle at price parity to ICE until * AFTER * 2030.

 

[Ogre]

I don't think anyone does, but they're actually putting wheels to the road with their own supply chain now so... I'm thinking the Bolt was more like Tesla with the Model S and today it's more like GM is Tesla just starting Model 3 production. Those first nine months were really bad.

I think the Hummer is a better analogy for the Roadster. GM largely outsourced the Bolt and as a result didn’t seem to learn much of anything from it.

Ultium is essentially a reboot of their whole efforts.

 

[firsttruck]

Yeah, GM will have 50 models but only ship 10 units of each and lose $10s of thousands on each unit.

Do you really think they'll sell fewer than they do now, and their margins won't improve?

That's TSLAQ level doubt.

-Crissa

Based on GM (we lead EVs & it matters) numerous past broken promises (dating back to 2017), recent history (over a year after release, Hummer & Lyriq barely shipping), now cancelling Bolt (only EV model they shipped in quantity), and now admitting will not be able to have $30K-40K model price parity with ICE until AFTER 2030.

NO, I am not being like TSLAQ.

 

[Ogre]

The statement the CEO of GM made was worse than that.

They said GM would not be able to profitable release a $30K-40K vehicle at price parity to ICE until * AFTER * 2030.

The way she said it, it sounded like she was suggesting it was beyond their control and that a profitable sub $40k was just not possible until then.

Which clearly isn’t the case.

 

[Ogre]

Based on GM (we lead EVs & it matters) numerous past broken promises (dating back to 2017), recent history (over a year after release, Hummer & Lyriq barely shipping), now cancelling Bolt (only EV model they shipped in quantity), and now admitting will not be able to have $30K-40K model price parity with ICE until AFTER 2030.

NO, I am not being like TSLAQ.

In my book GM‘s projections about shipping volume and new products are just completely worthless. They’ve said they would have 20+ new EVs by this year. What we got is the Hummer shipping a handful of trucks, and a couple thousand LYRIQ. Every six months they move the goalposts a little and change their rhetoric a little. Just last year they claimed they’d ship 400k EVs by 2024 and lowered the “22 new EVs by end of 2023 to 9. Seems likely the 9 new EVs by end of 2023 is unlikely as well.

Or maybe they will have more SKUs ship at the expense of their current models.

 

[cvalue13]

So, the IRA required “everyone” to have access to federally funded chargers.

at the time, that cut only one direction: “everyone” except Tesla were on CCS. So in effect, they law read: because Tesla is the odd-man-out, all charge stations can get federal funding other than Tesla, unless/until Tesla adds CCS stalls.

but with Ford/GM announcing the switch, isn’t the law in practical effect back on balance:

For “everyone” to charge, not only does Tesla need to add CCS, but now non-Tesla charge networks will need to add NACS

this leverage won’t really have mass until near or within 2025, when the Ford/GM NACS units go into production. And I don’t expect to see the WH addressing the issue unless/until Ford/GM have executed on the switch.

but seems Tesla and Ford have painted not only the WH into a corner soon, but also more immediately every CCS charge network.

if you’re a CCS charge network, you had better be worrying whether “everyone” means “everyone” and how to prepare for the possibility the WH is forced to recognize the pickle it’s in.

 

[Crissa]

Based on GM (we lead EVs & it matters) numerous past broken promises (dating back to 2017), recent history (over a year after release, Hummer & Lyriq barely shipping), now cancelling Bolt (only EV model they shipped in quantity), and now admitting will not be able to have $30K-40K model price parity with ICE until AFTER 2030.

NO, I am not being like TSLAQ.

None of those things say they can't make profit on 50+K vehicles (the ones being discussed).

And not making a profit is not the same as losing money.

-Crissa

 

[PilotPete]

this leverage won’t really have mass until near or within 2025, when the Ford/GM NACS units go into production.

IF all current GM EV owners are getting the adapter, then it’ll be before 2025 when the beginning of the impact is felt. As long as Tesla builds at the current rate (which is humorously faster than GM and FORD can sell EVs) the only impact will be some popular local spots. GM and Ford are going to need to sell at a far greater rate to make a systemic impact.

 

[cvalue13]

IF all current GM EV owners are getting the adapter, then it’ll be before 2025 when the beginning of the impact is felt. As long as Tesla builds at the current rate (which is humorously faster than GM and FORD can sell EVs) the only impact will be some popular local spots. GM and Ford are going to need to sell at a far greater rate to make a systemic impact.

we’re talking about different things

I’m not talking about who can charger where based on adaptor, nor superchargers getting crowded with non-teslas

I’m talking about the terms of the IRA AND ITS statutory basis for federal funding of charger construction

 

[PilotPete]

we’re talking about different things

I’m not talking about who can charger where based on adaptor, nor superchargers getting crowded with non-teslas

I’m talking about the terms of the IRA AND ITS statutory basis for federal funding of charger construction

Gotcha.

I wonder if GM sending out the adapter qualifies for "having access" under the IRA? Or if that somehow triggers a provision of the act.

 

[cvalue13]

Gotcha.

I wonder if GM sending out the adapter qualifies for "having access" under the IRA? Or if that somehow triggers a provision of the act.

the IRA, clumsily, only lists a qualification that to be eligible for construction funding a station have at least 4 CCS enabled chargers - which was an obvious and direct exclusion of funding for any typical Tesla supercharger station

it does not list the converse: that a station with historically only CCS chargers must include eg at least 4 NACS chargers to receive funding

the IRA has no language around availability of adaptors

 

[CyberGus]

the IRA, clumsily, only lists a qualification that to be eligible for construction funding a station have at least 4 CCS enabled chargers - which was an obvious and direct exclusion of funding for any typical Tesla supercharger station

it does not list the converse: that a station with historically only CCS chargers must include eg at least 4 NACS chargers to receive funding

the IRA has no language around availability of adaptors

The IRA was indirectly admitting that CCS charging needs help, while NACS not so much.

 

[CyberGus]

Meanwhile, GM may not be finished with the Bolt EV after all. A cheap Bolt on the Ultium platform, with faster charge rates and a NACS port, would be a real winner.



GM CEO Hints At Chevrolet Bolt’s Return As Ultium-Based, Sub-$30,000 EV
Mary Barra says she "absolutely loves" the current-gen Bolt EUV.

General Motors CEO Mary Barra hinted at the return of the entry-level Chevrolet Bolt EV in the near future, which would be priced below the upcoming Equinox EV crossover.

While speaking on NPR’s Marketplace podcast, GM’s head honcho said that she’s been driving a Bolt EUV for several months and that she "absolutely loves" it, but it’s a second-generation EV, which means higher production costs than the third-gen Ultium platform, which brings a 40 percent reduction in battery costs.

As a result, the current Bolt EV and Bolt EUV will be retired by the end of the year, even though it still offers great value for money almost seven years after going into production in 2016, with a starting price of $26,500 (excluding destination charge).

Barra: So I’ve been driving a Bolt EUV for several months before that. Absolutely love it.
Ryssdal (host): So why are you stopping making it?
Barra: Because it’s our second-generation technology. The difference between our second generation and third generation, which is Ultium, is a 40% reduction in battery costs. And we’re leveraging the names of our vehicles that are well understood and known in industry.
People, you know, who drive an Equinox today will understand what an Equinox EV, what that delivers to them. But, you know, Bolt is something that has built up a lot of loyalty and equity.
So I can’t say more because I don’t discuss future product programs. But, you know, it was primarily a move from second generation to third generation. But that’s [an] important vehicle in our portfolio.
Ryssdal: Nudge nudge, wink wink, I guess.

When the all-new, Ultium-based Chevy Equinox EV was announced early last year, some pundits argued that it will replace the Bolt when it comes to market in Fall 2023 with an estimated MSRP of around $30,000, but now it seems this won’t be the case, with a potential return of the Bolt EV as an even more affordable battery-electric vehicle.

Considering GM has 40 percent lower battery costs with the Ultium platform compared to the second-generation battery that underpins the current Bolt EV, a starting price of around $25,000 for a latest-gen compact EV wouldn’t be impossible if you ask us. And that’s without any tax credit or incentive.

The soon-to-be-retired Chevy Bolt EV has an EPA-estimated range of 259 miles, while the slightly larger Bolt EUV can drive for up to 247 miles on a single charge, according to the EPA. The two compact cars are also the least costly EVs to own over five years, according to Kelley Blue Book, so not a bad deal at all.

It’s worth noting that the Bolt’s journey hasn’t always been a smooth ride, as General Motors halted production of both vehicles in August 2021 due to a massive battery recall that affected about 142,000 units. Production resumed in April 2022.

https://insideevs.com/news/671553/gm-ceo-hints-at-ultium-based-chevrolet-bolt-ev/

 

[Ogre]

Gotcha.

I wonder if GM sending out the adapter qualifies for "having access" under the IRA? Or if that somehow triggers a provision of the act.

whitehouse did a bit of a “special interpretation” of their own legislation and has said funding is only available for CCS equipped chargers.

This contradicts the actual wording of the measure.

Not sure if they are just talking about “for the moment…” or making an administrative call on what the standard is in spite of where the industry appears to be going.

Will be a stance that is increasingly distanced from the reality over time.

 

[firsttruck]

whitehouse did a bit of a “special interpretation” of their own legislation and has said funding is only available for CCS equipped chargers.

This contradicts the actual wording of the measure.

Not sure if they are just talking about “for the moment…” or making an administrative call on what the standard is in spite of where the industry appears to be going.

Will be a stance that is increasingly distanced from the reality over time.

Tesla still wins because Tesla Supercharger with Magic Dock CCS/NACS is probably significantly cheaper than competitor's CCS only units.