Europe is making faster cars and better batteries than Tesla

[azjohn]

Nikola is now in bed with GM

 

[CappyJax]

Nikola is now in bed with GM

Interesting that Nikola is going to use GM batteries and HFC system meaning they essentially have nothing to offer. What innovation is coming from Nikola?

 

[CappyJax]

I see that Gm has dropped the idea of FCV's for their own passenger vehicles. This is how I imagine a meeting going at GM.

"We are going to halt our development of fuel cells in passengers cars and trucks."

"Well, we spent billions on development, how can we recoup that?"

"Hmmm, maybe we can trade our technology for shares in a company that hasn't figured out HFCs in passenger vehicles aren't practical. We agree to keep those shares for a year, then dump them once that year is up. We just need someone on the board to help keep the share prices high for a year."

"But who could possibly be that gullible?"

 

[Crissa]

Nikola isn't aiming for fuel cell passenger cars, though.

-Crissa

 

[TruckElectric]

What innovation is coming from Nikola?

Only thing I can figure is the design of the truck.

 

[Crissa]

Nikola also has the business model of buying electricity when it's cheap (solar) and storing it in a moveable medium (hydrogen) without carbon emissions.

Innovation is sometimes mostly getting the will to do it.

Tho they need to start putting some of this stuff on the ground.

-Crissa

 

[TruckElectric]

Nikola also has the business model of buying electricity when it's cheap (solar) and storing it in a moveable medium (hydrogen) without carbon emissions.

I don't think this will work. It takes more energy to extract hydrogen(from whatever, hydrocarbons or H2O) than what you get out of it.

 

[Crissa]

I don't think this will work. It takes more energy to extract hydrogen(from whatever, hydrocarbons or H2O) than what you get out of it.

It doesn't matter that it takes more energy: The point is that it can be stored or put into trucks.

The efficiency is just a multiplier on the stack. Charging and discharging a battery isn't much more than 90% efficient, but you're capped by the batteries you have on hand. Tanks for hydrogen aren't easy to make, but they are easier (and much cheaper) to make than batteries.

The kwh to kg of even low pressure hydrogen storage makes it desirable for big transport like trucks and ships because it doesn't displace carrying capacity.

At least, that's the back of napkin that Nikola is based off of. The logistics however have been difficult. Many hydrogen stations just sit unused or unbuilt. But the same can be said for EV charging stations...

-Crissa

 

[TruckElectric]

Tanks for hydrogen aren't easy to make, but they are easier (and much cheaper) to make than batteries.

I have no idea how much tanks for hydrogen cost but they can't be cheap to make.

Show me some figures on how much hydrogen storage tanks cost.

I'm also curious what will happen when one of these hydrogen trucks is in a bad accident. We could call it "the Hindenburg effect".

The kwh to kg of even low pressure hydrogen storage makes it desirable for big transport like trucks and ships because it doesn't displace carrying capacity.

If that were the case it would have already happened.

 

[CappyJax]

I have no idea how much tanks for hydrogen cost but they can't be cheap to make.

Show me some figures on how much hydrogen storage tanks cost.

I'm also curious what will happen when one of these hydrogen trucks is in a bad accident. We could call it "the Hindenburg effect".



If that were the case it would have already happened.

I don't know how much they cost, but I know they weigh about 25-30kg for every 1kg of hydrogen stored. Nikola holds 80kg. The effective energy density of compressed hydrogen is only around 1,400Wh/kg not counting the weight of the HFC.

The tanks are actually the safest form of energy storage we have ever devised for a vehicle. Any crash that would puncture a tank would kill everyone inside instantly. And if it does puncture, the gas escapes in seconds and rises in the atmosphere very quickly.

 

[CappyJax]

The kwh to kg of even low pressure hydrogen storage makes it desirable for big transport like trucks and ships because it doesn't displace carrying capacity.

No, it isn't. Low pressure hydrogen has a very low volumetric density. High pressure hydrogen has a low gravimetric density. You either lose physical space or weight capacity.

 

[TruckElectric]

Any crash that would puncture a tank would kill everyone inside instantly.

And anyone else in the vicinity.

And if it does puncture, the gas escapes in seconds and rises in the atmosphere very quickly.

If it's ignited watch out!

 

[CappyJax]

And anyone else in the vicinity.



If it's ignited watch out!

Even if ignited, it is far less dangerous than gasoline, diesel, propane, or a battery. It would burn off in seconds and be done.

 

[TruckElectric]

Even if ignited, it is far less dangerous than gasoline, diesel, propane, or a battery. It would burn off in seconds and be done.

Good point. But because it is compressed it would cause dangerous shrapnel from the tanks when ignited and an explosion occurs.

 

[CappyJax]

Good point. But because it is compressed it would cause dangerous shrapnel from the tanks when ignited and an explosion occurs.

Any pressure buildup in the tanks would open the over pressure valve and all he hydrogen would escape. And if that failed, composite tanks rupture, they don't explode.