Jailbreak Tesla

[rodmacpherson]

For real? Not even remotely the same thing. I can pay a 3rd party to put in accessories, like heated seats or even ventilated seats. But why when the hardware is already there? This isn't me running/bypassing Tesla's software.

Isn't it? the part that requires Tesla (or more likely in the heated seat example, BMW's ) cooperation is the enablement of the seat heaters in software so you can turn them on via the main controls. I have not examined a software locked heated seat, but I can't think of a way it could be implemented where a toggle switch to turn it on could not be done. Would it look and work like the OEM solution? no, but would it work? I think so. Heated seats are just a resistive heater, like a toaster. Provide power it will heat.

Modifying the firmware to let you turn it on without paying is, and probably should be illegal, as you are using the work of the programmers without paying for it, but getting a toggle switch at the auto-parts store, or even building your own embedded computer controls that are separate from the OEM controls, from my point of view, would be perfectly fine.

Likewise, using someone else's Windows license key to activate Windows is theft, installing Linux so you don't have to use Windows is fine.

 

[ninja6r]

Rationalize it all you want but it’s stealing.

. Here's the thing though. I own the wiring for those heated seats and all the connectors. If i solder my own connection to use them, I can and should be able to. Explain to me how that's stealing.

Modifying the firmware to let you turn it on without paying is, and probably should be illegal, as you are using the work of the programmers without paying for it, but getting a toggle switch at the auto-parts store, or even building your own embedded computer controls that are separate from the OEM controls, from my point of view, would be perfectly fine.

Thank you! That's literally what I'm trying to explain here.

But I also think we should be able to build and run our own 3rd party firmware (OS) for our vehicles, but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole with everyone here.

 

[CyberGus]

But I also think we should be able to build and run our own 3rd party firmware (OS) for our vehicles, but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole with everyone here.

And yet, you mentioned it, so.....

If you want to h4X0r your home PC, go nuts. But a car is different. It has regulatory compliance required for use on public roads. Bad software could drive it into oncoming traffic, or cause it to spontaneously catch fire, or even explode when supercharging.

Manufacturers should not intentionally impede 3rd party repair when safe to do so, but completely replacing the software should require the vehicle to be re-evaluated for safety compliance.

 

[ninja6r]

Do you "own" something just because it's in your physical possession?

Possession is 9/10th of the law .

Manufacturers should not intentionally impede 3rd party repair when safe to do so, but completely replacing the software should require the vehicle to be re-evaluated for safety compliance.

100% agree.

 

[cvalue13]

Do you "own" something just because it's in your physical possession?

that's why it's an interesting problem!

In this case, one does "own" all the physical assets of the automobile and its components.

The software within it, you do not own past the license to use it according to terms.

The intersection of the two above truths is where the squiggly lines are

 

[CyberGus]

that's why it's an interesting problem!

In this case, one does "own" all the physical assets of the automobile and its components.

The software within it, you do not own past the license to use it according to terms.

The intersection of the two above truths is where the squiggly lines are

True, but I suppose Tesla could put weasel-wording into the sales contract to the effect of "we retain ownership of the computer" etc., but that seems legally dubious.

Of course, the US Government owns my mailbox, even though I paid $50 at Home Cheapo

 

[JBee]

Guys, but what of EMs intention to open source FSD anyway? What ya going to say then?

Or what about the 'integrity" of paying 10k for FSD and still not getting it years later, and the price still goes up.

Honestly, the heated seat, which is quite literally a bit of wire stitched into the seat, has to be a really low cost item that is super "cheapskate" of them not to enable, given that in cooler climates you can drive further on a charge given you don't have to crank the cabin heater so much.

The whole thing that opens up with this specific jailbreak is the ability to actually control your own vehicle, whenever and wherever you like. It's not about "stealing FSD" although you could, it's about having your own control over your vehicle.

What if you make it better and use less power and save the planet more or whatnot because of it? Maybe you find a bug in the code like how X is OS now for that reason?

EM long ago proposed that he would STOP selling cars once FSD was around.
He already has heaps of "lease only" M3s driving around that need to be returned in a few years so they can be reused as robotaxis.

BTW, don't fool yourselves that a electrically or software "compliant" vehicle is a safe one. Drivers crash perfectly good cars all the time, and good drivers crash perfectly terrible bombs too.

The point here is still the same, you need to be super specific to make an argument for or against.

Personally, I don't mind paying for what I use, that's completely fair. But that also means in turn I want to use what I paid for.

The problem actually comes down to the fact that "paying" for something in fiat currency doesn't actually mean you haven't "stolen" from someone else. Currency is not payment, it is transfer of debt, so you can buy something else you want. Like what sneakers do you wear? Or shirt? Bangladesh? Philippine?

Now ask yourself who is leveraging good old capitalism, currency markets and fossil derived economy, to plunder the poor and subservient class of the world for material wealth and extreme consumerism?

Slavery has not been stopped.

The developed world has just figured out how to export it, so you don't have to look at it any more.

Although, in saying that, US homelessness and drug dependency is pretty shocking too.

Maybe the solution is to reasses our value system instead.

 

[ninja6r]

Now ask yourself who is leveraging good old capitalism, currency markets and fossil derived economy, to plunder the poor and subservient class of the world for material wealth and extreme consumerism?

Slavery has not been stopped.

The developed world has just figured out how to export it, so you don't have to look at it any more.

Although, in saying that, US homelessness and drug dependency is pretty shocking too.

Maybe the solution is to reasses our value system instead.

I'm glad you went there and not me. I don't think you'll get many anti-capitalists or even, anti-consumerists on this forum. Ego is a strong thing and makes it extremely hard for others to think outside of their institutionalized way of thinking.

 

[CyberGus]

I'm glad you went there and not me. I don't think you'll get many anti-capitalists or even, anti-consumerists on this forum. Ego is a strong thing and makes it extremely hard for others to think outside of their institutionalized way of thinking.

Hey, I was only institutionalized that one time

 

[JBee]

I'm glad you went there and not me. I don't think you'll get many anti-capitalists or even, anti-consumerists on this forum. Ego is a strong thing and makes it extremely hard for others to think outside of their institutionalized way of thinking.

Lol As many here already know too well, I never leave that place... ?

It's good to rattle the cage from time to time, to make sure the bars that bound our perception are real or not.

It's a general problem of a globilised world and society, and of its conveniently under reported externalities, that causes a whole range of false value inputs, that in turn promote a cascade of systemic corruption,from education to politics, to morals etc, that leads to the perversion of truth.

It's good to be principled, but we should never make the mistake that we think we know or abide by them all. Such it is to be human.

 

[PilotPete]

See my inset comments…

Let me ask a related question of 'integrity' (not legality)

The new lower cost X and S have software limited battery packs. So what?

That means Tesla is spending the same amount to create the car, and using the same amount of battery-related resources, distributed into the wild as 'bricked.' In other words, the pricing is purely a marketing differentiation decision, not a reflection of Tesla's costs or resources. You’re not purchasing a product based on what it is costing Tesla to build. If that were true, no one could afford the electric F150! You are purchasing based on your opinion of perceived value.

Where does that rank in 'integrity' for you? One could take the position that, e.g., this is gross waste of resources all for pure capitalism ends. So what? If you don’t like the way they do business, then by all means, don’t do business with them. Go buy a Rivian and show Tesla who is boss! The consumer ALWAYS has the last say, and they vote with their money. Capitalism isn’t a reason to try and get away with crap. Suck it up, be a man, do the right thing. It ain’t that hard.

Personally, I don't find it an issue of 'integrity' proper. But I would say it can be fairly characterized as clarifying that if a manufacturer can play its games on its own terms, it arguably invites buyers to as well. No, just because you want something doesn’t mean they are “playing games”. It’s business, plain and simple. Again, vote with your feet and your dollars. They aren’t “inviting” diddly. They are making an offer for an X or S at an advertised cost with an available range of ###. Like it? Buy it. Don’t like it? Buy a different model or even a different car. There is no justification for being a cheat. “But mom, he started it!” That didn’t work when I was 5, and it doesn’t work now.

Sorry if I’m stepping on toes. This isn’t a “gray” area to me. It’s black and white. I don’t care what you think you own or possess, you paid for X and now that you have it, you want Y. You didn’t pay for the extended range, you aren’t entitled to it. Trying to obtain something you didn’t pay for isn’t ok. What it cost a company doesn’t mean a thing. If the capitalism bothers you, there are plenty of places to live where that isn’t an issue. There are communes and co-ops even here that you can live it. Or, just do business with companies that don’t use software to enable features. It ain’t hard. There is no justification,

 

[PilotPete]

Possession is 9/10th of the law .

Except, it isn’t. Try that in court and see how well it works. Show me anywhere in the law or a court case where that is held.

 

[CyberGus]

Possession is 9/10th of the law .

The other 1/10th is how they get you

 

[cvalue13]

Sorry if I’m stepping on toes.

not stepping on toes

just being a good bit inconsistent in your purported principles

 

[ninja6r]

Except, it isn’t. Try that in court and see how well it works. Show me anywhere in the law or a court case where that is held.

I did notice you didn't reply to the other post, buy you did reply to my joking one, lol

It's not about entitlement or stealing, it's about the physical thing being in existence and included in the product I purchased. You can talk about it being software locked all you want, but after I give Tesla $40k and get the title, every physical thing in that car is now mine. They don't own anything hardware related. Will it void the warranty to tamper with the software? Yep. Is it illegal to hack the software to unlock stuff? Yep. Is it legal for me to use the hardware in the car? Yep. How I get there is the gray area and what we're talking about.

People are allowed to modify their cars and whatever other items they've legally purchased. Again, my laptop example I thought would help get you there. It's now my motherboard and I can solder anything I want to it, even more RAM slots. If you think that I shouldn't be allowed use the hardware that came with my purchase, I'm not sure what more there is to say on this. Have you had this same issue with all the muscle cars and rice-burners modifying there cars? What are your views on ECU tuning?

I get it. You're a black and white person, no gray areas. Maybe let's just agree that we view these things differently. I obviously won't change your mind and you'll not going to be able to change mine. Have a great week everyone. I'm going to peace out from this thread.

The other 1/10th is how they get you

True dat