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Jailbreak Tesla

PilotPete

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Fun fact:

Like the first smartphone, it never was an Apple in the first place. The whole apple story stems from the prohibition when they were trying to get rid of drinking cider. An apple is not mentioned in the Adam and Eve storey at all.

The Apple farmers came up with the counter slogan, "an Apple a day keeps the doctor away", to keep from going bust. Btw apples back then were primarily for cider not eating, it's only since then they've made eating the more popular choice of consumption.
You are correct, Genesis says "the fruit". However, the joke only works when you say apple. It's like the wisemen story. It never says there were 3, it only mentions 3 gifts. 5 of them could have brought a total of 3 different gifts. Conversely, two could have brought 3 gifts.
 

Easyejl

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I guess I'm wrong, lol. DRM'ing heated seats is apparently protected by law and people seem to think that's ok, because DMCA. Philosophically and socially, I won't comment on my view of the matter any further. DRM prevents people from truly owning their own devices.
I'm partially with you on the heated seats thing. Or even battery range, when a 150kwh batter pack is in the vehicle but is software limited to 100. You know that part of the price of the vehicle up front has to cover those hardware costs, as they aren't going to sell the cars at a loss hoping people will pay for the upgrades. But it is still wishy washy. And FSD is another animal entirely, that is a software product, it isn't different than using a stolen copy of "fill in the name of some expensive software package" like the adobe suite or microsoft office.
 

CyberGus

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You are correct, Genesis says "the fruit". However, the joke only works when you say apple. It's like the wisemen story. It never says there were 3, it only mentions 3 gifts. 5 of them could have brought a total of 3 different gifts. Conversely, two could have brought 3 gifts.
There are only 10 kinds of wise men in the bible...
 

CyberGus

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Im interested in this line of thinking, Gus. So below not disputing, exploring.

are you certain the DMCA, which I think only covers unlocking “software features,” is applicable here?

take Tesla’s incredible “software” limiting of pack size access. There’s a eg 100kWh battery pack under the car, which pack I own, and a software UI “lock” that merely prohibits the software’s access to the entire physical battery. Utilizing that battery isn’t a “software feature” is it?

if I have a schlage digital lock on the front door to my house, and someone bypasses the lock’s software to get inside my home and take my first edition autographed YoKo Ono autobiography, is the DMCA applicable?

In this analogy: I purchase a house from Mr. Schlage himself, with a deed that says I own everything on the lot or in the house. But Mr. Schlage placed a Schlage digital lock on the basement door because he doesn’t want me to enjoy it. Says I could pay him extra to give me the code to the lock. While I may not own the software in that digital lock, I’m free to *break* that software. So I bypass that software to access my basement?

This trend in cars of software locking the UI to hard assets owned by the user, I’m not aware of any caselaw on it yet - but if there’s not yet, there will be!
Cracking open a software feature is cut-and-dry illegal, but software-enablement of hardware is admittedly more of a grey area. To be clear, one could violate the DMCA without it rising to the level of "stealing". For instance, it's a DMCA violation to remove copy-protection from digital media that you purchased, even if you never illegally redistribute it.

(Technically, that little girls' lemonade stand is illegal without a permit, a business license, and a health department certificate, but most people in power reserve their enforcement for the worst of the violators. Except for HOAs of course.)

The mainframe/supercomputer sellers often ship systems with extra CPU/RAM that was not paid for, but is software locked. The idea is that the extra capacity will be needed eventually, allowing for an instant upgrade, and it's cheaper to let some of the hardware lie fallow than to send a tech to install it later. So, who owns that extra RAM before it is purchased? Do you "own" something just because it's in your physical possession?

Regardless, I'm fairly certain that anyone profiting from software-unlocking of hardware will be litigated into oblivion by the IP holders.
 
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CoachTerry

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Is it stealing though? I mean, I bought the car. It came with the hardware and it has the capability to be turned on. I own it, Tesla doesn't. Not my problem if they installed the feature, but locked me out. I don't see how that's stealing at all.
I have several Apple devices. If I want garage band, I have to pay. Just because I could pirate a copy (pre-license control) wouldn’t make it moral or legal. It is a well-accepted hardware/software business model. Tesla is spending billions developing the software, any unlicensed use is theft from the shareholders.

just my old school view
 

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Cracking open a software feature is cut-and-dry illegal, but software-enablement of hardware is admittedly more of a grey area. To be clear, one could violate the DMCA without it rising to the level of "stealing". For instance, it's a DMCA violation to remove copy-protection from digital media that you purchased, even if you never illegally redistribute it.

(Technically, that little girls' lemonade stand is illegal without a permit, a business license, and a health department certificate, but most people in power reserve their enforcement for the worst of the violators. Except for HOAs of course.)

The mainframe/supercomputer sellers often ship systems with extra CPU/RAM that was not paid for, but is software locked. The idea is that the extra capacity will be needed eventually, allowing for an instant upgrade, and it's cheaper to let some of the hardware lie fallow than to send a tech to install it later. So, who owns that extra RAM before it is purchased? Do you "own" something just because it's in your physical possession?

Regardless, I'm fairly certain that anyone profiting from software-unlocking of hardware will be litigated into oblivion by the IP holders.
Let’s not forget, what we are talking about here is, someone wants something, and they don’t want to pay for it.

Are heated seats really THAT expensive? For those considering it as ok, are you really that freaking cheap? Or have you so overextended yourself that the cost of heated seats will ruin you? Give me a break.

This is a business transaction. Pay for what you want, don’t try to cheap out on what you want but aren’t willing to pay for. Be an adult, not a thief trying to raid the footlocker store during a riot and get you some free Pumas.
 

CyberGus

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Let’s not forget, what we are talking about here is, someone wants something, and they don’t want to pay for it.

Are heated seats really THAT expensive? For those considering it as ok, are you really that freaking cheap? Or have you so overextended yourself that the cost of heated seats will ruin you? Give me a break.

This is a business transaction. Pay for what you want, don’t try to cheap out on what you want but aren’t willing to pay for. Be an adult, not a thief trying to raid the footlocker store during a riot and get you some free Pumas.
The weird thing about the BMW heated-seats fee is that it's a monthly charge instead of a one-time purchase. It's feels odd to rent part of something that you own.

For instance, I don't mind paying monthly for Netflix, they provide me service on an ongoing basis. Paying monthly for hardware enablement is weird, and a one-time payment would be more appropriate.
 

ninja6r

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Let’s not forget, what we are talking about here is, someone wants something, and they don’t want to pay for it.

Are heated seats really THAT expensive? For those considering it as ok, are you really that freaking cheap? Or have you so overextended yourself that the cost of heated seats will ruin you? Give me a break.

This is a business transaction. Pay for what you want, don’t try to cheap out on what you want but aren’t willing to pay for. Be an adult, not a thief trying to raid the footlocker store during a riot and get you some free Pumas.
For real? Not even remotely the same thing. I can pay a 3rd party to put in accessories, like heated seats or even ventilated seats. But why when the hardware is already there? This isn't me running/bypassing Tesla's software.

Here's an example that maybe helps a little bit. I bought a laptop. That laptop comes with 4gb RAM in slot 1. There are two slots for the RAM on the motherboard and in order to streamline production, all laptops come with 2x4gb ram. In order to enable that second slot, I have to open the laptop and flick a switch. If you think that should be illegal, then we have bigger issues and I see a horrible future ahead.

The weird thing about the BMW heated-seats fee is that it's a monthly charge instead of a one-time purchase. It's feels odd to rent part of something that you own.

For instance, I don't mind paying monthly for Netflix, they provide me service on an ongoing basis. Paying monthly for hardware enablement is weird, and a one-time payment would be more appropriate.
That's BMW testing the waters on the future and I think that's the direction all manufacturers want to go. What do you think the future looks like in 10-20 years? What's the end of life for Tesla's software. They're not going to support older models at some point and so, what will that look like? Someone buys a 20 year old model 3 and Tesla says the software is too old to maintain unless you pay them $20/month. That may not happen, but I can see it happening. A lot of people seem to be struggling with what ownership looks like and obviously, I'm in the camp that the hardware (car) that I purchased is mine. Every physical part of it.
 

CyberPhyl

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I guess I'm wrong, lol. DRM'ing heated seats is apparently protected by law and people seem to think that's ok, because DMCA. Philosophically and socially, I won't comment on my view of the matter any further. DRM prevents people from truly owning their own devices.
It doesn’t prevent people from “truly owning their own devices” because really what is happening is more complicated. If it were equally costly for companies to make base models, mid models, luxury models, they would just do that. Then when you bought the base or mid grade model, you would have the FULL functionality of that device. However, due to manufacturing processes it happens to be much simpler to have the same PCU, engine, etc “tuned” differently to fit the base, mid, lux versions. So if you would rather pay more for the base, mid, lux versions to force the company to make truly different versions, go ahead and lobby for that. I’d be happier to pay less and choose the options I’d like knowing the programming is a little different.
 

PilotPete

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Here's an example that maybe helps a little bit. I bought a laptop. That laptop comes with 4gb RAM in slot 1. There are two slots for the RAM on the motherboard and in order to streamline production, all laptops come with 2x4gb ram. In order to enable that second slot, I have to open the laptop and flick a switch. If you think that should be illegal, then we have bigger issues and I see a horrible future ahead.
Please don't confuse "illegal" with my opinions on integrity. I hold a high standard for my principles. My comments that you quoted are not about legality, but rather "what kind of person do you want to be?" And if you bought the laptop with only 4gig of RAM, then that's what you paid for. Can you enable the second slot? I don't care, that's not the question. Would you get caught? Still not the issue. It's a question of your integrity and how you want to live your life. As for me, I'll either pay for it, or go without. I'm not a cheap cheater, nor a liar, nor a thief. My word is my bond, and I stand by what I say. Whether I sign something or not, if I say yes, you can take that to the bank. I don't use someone else's netflix login, if I want it bad enough, I'll pay for it myself. The law has nothing to do with my views on integrity and morality. Please know I'm not directing this at you, personally. Just the scenario you described.

And yes, I have strong opinions about this, and I'm fairly passionate about it.
 

ninja6r

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Please don't confuse "illegal" with my opinions on integrity. I hold a high standard for my principles. My comments that you quoted are not about legality, but rather "what kind of person do you want to be?" And if you bought the laptop with only 4gig of RAM, then that's what you paid for. Can you enable the second slot? I don't care, that's not the question. Would you get caught? Still not the issue. It's a question of your integrity and how you want to live your life. As for me, I'll either pay for it, or go without. I'm not a cheap cheater, nor a liar, nor a thief. My word is my bond, and I stand by what I say. Whether I sign something or not, if I say yes, you can take that to the bank. I don't use someone else's netflix login, if I want it bad enough, I'll pay for it myself. The law has nothing to do with my views on integrity and morality. Please know I'm not directing this at you, personally. Just the scenario you described.

And yes, I have strong opinions about this, and I'm fairly passionate about it.
Cybercab Robotaxi Jailbreak Tesla giphy


I want to be the person who does whatever the hell they want with what they own. I can't steal something that I own. I bought a laptop that physically had 2 RAM slots.

If i wanted to solder another USB port to it, I should be able to, it's my f-ing motherboard now. Am I explaining this correctly? I feel like I'm going mad, lol. :ROFLMAO:

How about this one. I bought a TV, and that TV came with a remote that has a proprietary screw that holds the batteries. The screwdriver is sold separately. Would you cut the remote you purchased, in order to replace the batteries or would you buy the screwdriver from them? Keep in mind, you own the remote because you bought the tv.

Nothing in my examples is about stealing. I'm pretty bored today, I guess. I need Tesla to get me this truck so I stop checking this site hourly. :)
 

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Is it stealing though? I mean, I bought the car. It came with the hardware and it has the capability to be turned on. I own it, Tesla doesn't. Not my problem if they installed the feature, but locked me out. I don't see how that's stealing at all.
Rationalize it all you want but it’s stealing.
 

cvalue13

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Please don't confuse "illegal" with my opinions on integrity. I hold a high standard for my principles. My comments that you quoted are not about legality, but rather "what kind of person do you want to be?"
Let me ask a related question of 'integrity' (not legality)

The new lower cost X and S have software limited battery packs.

That means Tesla is spending the same amount to create the car, and using the same amount of battery-related resources, distributed into the wild as 'bricked.' In other words, the pricing is purely a marketing differentiation decision, not a reflection of Tesla's costs or resources.

Where does that rank in 'integrity' for you? One could take the position that, e.g., this is gross waste of resources all for pure capitalism ends.

Personally, I don't find it an issue of 'integrity' proper. But I would say it can be fairly characterized as clarifying that if a manufacturer can play it's games on its own terms, it arguably invites buyers to as well.
 
 
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