GM Adopting NACS Tesla Charge Ports on Its Vehicles Starting 2025!

[Crissa]

It's incredibly irrational and short-sighted to claim that "more variety" in charge ports is a good thing.

No one in this thread said that. More variety in charging devices, places, companies, yes. Ports, no.

-Crissa

 

[azjohn]

Look no further than the per-kWh charges at Superchargers.

The majority of my Supercharging has been at $0.44/kWh.

My home electricity costs about 1/3rd that, so Tesla's markup can be as high as 200% (300% of their costs), assuming they're paying retail prices for electricity -- but they're likely paying industrial rates instead.

While I don't know what Tesla's fixed costs for Superchargers look like, their marginal costs give them plenty of room to work with.

Tesla will be fine here.

I'm more worried about the Tesla car brand being destroyed by the CEO picking political fights with his core customers than I am about whether the charging network will be profitable.

According to Electrek it’s less than $43k per SC

https://electrek.co/2022/04/15/tesla-cost-deploy-superchargers-revealed-one-fifth-competition/

 

[azjohn]

If Tesla makes 5 cents on each kwh it is extortion. (Electricity only costs 10 - 12 cents on most of the the country.) But your point is fair, the fuel retailing business can be a profitable business to be sure.

It has cost Tesla a lot of money and provides a highly valuable service that somebody needed to do if Tesla hadn’t built the charging network EVs would be dead

I have no problem with Tesla charging what they do,your option is being dead on the side of the road

 

[SparkChaser]

The model of total dependency on charging networks is balanced by home charging. While not superchargers, they will be the primary way most people charge their vehicle.

 

[HaulingAss]

No one in this thread said that. More variety in charging devices, places, companies, yes. Ports, no.

-Crissa

The issue at hand in the post I responded to was whether there would be a unified charging standard and whether the Biden Adminstration was going to require CCS connectors (in addition to NACS) to receive funding for building charging infrastructure. And the comment was, more variety is good.

I made the case it's better to have a unified charging standard.

 

[Crissa]

The issue at hand in the post I responded to was whether there would be a unified charging standard and whether the Biden Adminstration was going to require CCS connectors (in addition to NACS) to receive funding for building charging infrastructure. And the comment was, more variety is good.

I made the case it's better to have a unified charging standard.

There are hundreds of thousands of CCS1 vehicles on the roads today.

There will be two more years adding hundreds of thousands more, at least.

To complain about the administration's choice to support those vehicles throughout their lifetime is to be rather disingenuous, isn't it?

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

There are hundreds of thousands of CCS1 vehicles on the roads today.

There will be two more years adding hundreds of thousands more, at least.

To complain about the administration's choice to support those vehicles throughout their lifetime is to be rather disingenuous, isn't it?

-Crissa

I didn't complain about the administration continuing to support the CCS standard but, considering that there will be adapters available from Ford and GM starting next year, I probably should complain that the administration hasn't shown any leadership in terms of coalescing the industry around a single standard.

In fact, before all this went down, the administration was giving the least popular fast DC charging standard the gold stamp of approval and completely leaving the most popular standard in the dust, the one that was already on the most cars and fast DC charging stations, the one that adds the least cost and weight to each EV, the one that's the easiest to use, especially for handicapped and old people. While I wasn't complaining about that under-handed treatment of the most commonly used standard, I certainly don't like the government thinking it's their job to pick the winners and losers when that should be left for the market to decide, not a committee.

What I *was* saying had nothing to do with government, it was that when it comes to charging standards, it's not "the more the merrier". It's definitely better to have one superior standard, not multiple competing standards, especially if it's the superior standard and is already the most popular and fastest growing standard in terms of existing cars and fast DC charging stations. I mean, we have had over a decade of EV's and fast DC charging stations to sort out which is better and it's not rocket science to determine which one is in wider use.

 

[Knucklehead]

It looks like a lot of people don't understand that residential electricity rates are typically a lot less than what the power companies charge DCFC stations. That's due to the high demand surcharges that are applied when pulling massive amounts of power in a short period of time. Maybe Tesla has figured out how to make money on it, but the others are losing money. Even on a marginal basis.

 

[CyberGus]

It looks like a lot of people don't understand that residential electricity rates are typically a lot less than what the power companies charge DCFC stations. That's due to the high demand surcharges that are applied when pulling massive amounts of power in a short period of time. Maybe Tesla has figured out how to make money on it, but the others are losing money. Even on a marginal basis.

An egg costs 25¢, but a Grand Slam™ costs $14.95. WHY IS DENNYS RIPPING US OFF

 

[cvalue13]

An egg costs 25¢, but a Grand Slam™ costs $14.95. WHY IS DENNYS RIPPING US OFF

imma remember this analogy for the daily convos RE Ford’s margins not matching Tesla’s

Ford grows and sells egg to Denny’s for $1, Denny’s cooks and sells egg to hungover customer @CyberGus for $2

Tesla grows, cooks, and sells egg to hungover customer @CyberGus for $2

WHY DOESNT FORD HAVE MARGINS LIKE TESLA!?

 

[PilotPete]

imma remember this analogy for the daily convos RE Ford’s margins not matching Tesla’s

Ford grows and sells egg to Denny’s for $1, Denny’s cooks and sells egg to hungover customer @CyberGus for $2

Tesla grows, cooks, and sells egg to hungover customer @CyberGus for $2

WHY DOESNT FORD HAVE MARGINS LIKE TESLA!?

Ford grows eggs, sells to Denny’s for $1, Dennys sells to customer for $2. Starbucks buys coffee for .05 and sells to customer for $5 to power them through the day.

Tesla grows, cooks and sells eggs for $1.95, then instead of going to Starbucks, you go to a SuperCharger and get your coffee for another $2 (That Tesla either grew on their solar panels or bought from the Edison coffee bean company for .05 and refrigerated it in the MegaPack fridge over night.) And instead of needing a restaurant that you have to go to to get your Grand Slam, Tesla has their own UberEats to deliver it to you at your home.

And people ask “Why doesn’t Ford…” When Tesla is both Ford, Denny’s, Starbucks, AND Chevron/Mobil/BP/Arco/Costco/Uber all rolled into one.

 

[Greshnab]

imma remember this analogy for the daily convos RE Ford’s margins not matching Tesla’s

Ford grows and sells egg to Denny’s for $1, Denny’s cooks and sells egg to hungover customer @CyberGus for $2

Tesla grows, cooks, and sells egg to hungover customer @CyberGus for $2

WHY DOESNT FORD HAVE MARGINS LIKE TESLA!?

you realize from the stock holders perspective in your analogy... I DO wanna know why ford can't make 2 bucks instead of 1... tesla is making more only per unit over all <2 bucks> by doing it themselves.. ford is halving their potential profit by outsourcing half of the process to denny's... why are you <ford> giving our <stockholders> profits to denny's?!?!?

I understand what you MEAN it is complex accounting and trying to make it simple makes for a bad comparison.. but yeah don't use that analogy.

 

[cvalue13]

you realize from the stock holders perspective in your analogy... I DO wanna know why ford can't make 2 bucks instead of 1... tesla is making more only per unit over all <2 bucks> by doing it themselves.. ford is halving their potential profit by outsourcing half of the process to denny's... why are you <ford> giving our <stockholders> profits to denny's?!?!?

I understand what you MEAN it is complex accounting and trying to make it simple makes for a bad comparison.. but yeah don't use that analogy.

So, in your world, every company that is in the wholesale business model are what, idiots? Because they’ve never even thought that they could get into the retail business?

the reason is basic:

There are benefits (and risks avoided) to not being in the last mile distribution and retail business. And, some of those benefits become increasingly valuable as your global scale and compliance footprint expand.

You can disagree, and obviously there are people who choose to be in that retail business - and for taking those risks, they get rewarded. Until they don’t.

But if you want to hash the analogy, here it is:

• imagine the risks associated with manufacturing and wholesale egg growing business are [X]

• imagine the risks associated with last mile distribution and retail breakfast service business are [Y]

• now imagine total margin a retail point-of-sale is on a scrambled egg is 10%

Ford model: assume [X risks] for 50% of total margin, effectively paying to Denny’s (as OpEx) the other 50% of total margin in order to avoid assuming [Y risks].

Tesla model, assume both [X risks] and [Y risks] (both as CapEx) to access 100% of total margin

And, as global compliance and footprint expand, the CapEx and [Y risk] demand for the other 50% of total margin begins to have increasingly diminished returns

framed like that, you as a stockholder focus on only the income side of the business, not the OpEx v CapEx value, not benefit/risk-avoidance value, etc.

The world is full of good businesses that choose to “outsource” last mile distribution and retail - and it’s not because they haven’t … thought of it.

PS, back to the real flaw of the analogy: all this is why 90% of Denny’s are franchises (ie dealerships)

 

[CyberGus]

Ford grows eggs, sells to Denny’s for $1, Dennys sells to customer for $2. Starbucks buys coffee for .05 and sells to customer for $5 to power them through the day.

Tesla grows, cooks and sells eggs for $1.95, then instead of going to Starbucks, you go to a SuperCharger and get your coffee for another $2 (That Tesla either grew on their solar panels or bought from the Edison coffee bean company for .05 and refrigerated it in the MegaPack fridge over night.) And instead of needing a restaurant that you have to go to to get your Grand Slam, Tesla has their own UberEats to deliver it to you at your home.

And people ask “Why doesn’t Ford…” When Tesla is both Ford, Denny’s, Starbucks, AND Chevron/Mobil/BP/Arco/Costco/Uber all rolled into one.

Turbo mixed-metaphor

 

[firsttruck]

imma remember this analogy for the daily convos RE Ford’s margins not matching Tesla’s

Ford grows and sells egg to Denny’s for $1, Denny’s cooks and sells egg to hungover customer @CyberGus for $2

Tesla grows, cooks, and sells egg to hungover customer @CyberGus for $2

WHY DOESNT FORD HAVE MARGINS LIKE TESLA!?

Ahh, Ford doesn't grow any eggs. Ford buys eggs from supplier who added a margin of profit for themselves.