$20M Lawsuit filed against Tesla after accident that injured 5 police officers

[SwampNut]

The suit cites defects - as there are none its also toast on that basis.

There are absolutely defects in AP that make it do crazy things in certain cases. I've had it try to steer me out of a lane into an occupied lane, which would have made me sideswipe a car. I also had it steer TOWARDS a stopped police car. In both cases, since I've learned that AP is really great until it's not, I was already planning to take over. In fact the police car incident was with a person I was giving a demo to, and told her "I know it doesn't deal with this well, so I'm going to take over until we pass this." I have several videos of my car doing something stupid, and know that while it's pretty much perfect on the easy stuff with good lane markings, it's defective with anything challenging.

Oh, yeah, two days ago it changed lanes IN THE MIDDLE OF THE INTERSECTION! I can't recall if I saved that video. It was a curved road, two lanes per direction, intersection in the middle of the curve. It has always done it fine in traffic. I was the only car, and it changed from the outside to inside lane in the intersection. I guess with cars to follow it does it right, but not when alone.

 

[CyberPhyl]

In a liability lawsuit, you name everyone breathing that day.

Exactly! And the lawyers could even know now that if they pursue this they have no chance when it goes to court…. But they know sometimes companies will offer $$$ to simply have their name dropped, which is my guess as to why Tesla was named.

 

[SwampNut]

Does anyone know if there was a dashcam recording from the car?

 

[jerhenderson]

There are absolutely defects in AP that make it do crazy things in certain cases. I've had it try to steer me out of a lane into an occupied lane, which would have made me sideswipe a car. I also had it steer TOWARDS a stopped police car. In both cases, since I've learned that AP is really great until it's not, I was already planning to take over. In fact the police car incident was with a person I was giving a demo to, and told her "I know it doesn't deal with this well, so I'm going to take over until we pass this." I have several videos of my car doing something stupid, and know that while it's pretty much perfect on the easy stuff with good lane markings, it's defective with anything challenging.

Oh, yeah, two days ago it changed lanes IN THE MIDDLE OF THE INTERSECTION! I can't recall if I saved that video. It was a curved road, two lanes per direction, intersection in the middle of the curve. It has always done it fine in traffic. I was the only car, and it changed from the outside to inside lane in the intersection. I guess with cars to follow it does it right, but not when alone.

AI learning isn't a defect.

 

[SwampNut]

AI learning has nothing to do with the fact that my car's choices are patently defective and certainly a liability in court. AI learning is being used somewhere in Tesla, but my car itself is not learning at all.

 

[Ogre]

There are absolutely defects in AP that make it do crazy things in certain cases.

There is a phrase they use to describe a type of airplane crash: "Controlled flight into terrain". It is exactly what it implies, the airplane is flown into the side of a mountain. Often autopilot engaged when these incidents happen. Nobody calls that a defect. It's the pilots job to ensure autopilot is engaged when it's appropriate and that the aircraft isn't pointed at the side of a mountain.

When a driver sees emergency lights, it's their job to slow down and move over a lane. This is not something Autopilot does ever. Thats not even in its design parameters.

Oh, yeah, two days ago it changed lanes IN THE MIDDLE OF THE INTERSECTION

I use Autopilot frequently during city driving as well, but that's not really what autopilot is designed for. Autopilot was designed for highway driving. FSD is their city driving technology. Some of the technology from FSD is going to trickle down to Autopilot, but Autopilot is not intended to deal with intersections, stoplights, stop signs, etc. That is your job as a driver.

You gotta pay for the $10k upgrade if you want to bitch about city driving. Or... pay $10k for FSD to bitch about not being able to get FSD.

 

[SwampNut]

"Controlled flight into terrain".

In motorcycling, inexperienced riders often ride all the way to the scene of the crash. Meaning they don't crash trying to avoid a collision, they actually just ride it to the collision. Target fixation and the mental inability to turn far enough. That too is a defect in thought process.

You gotta pay for the $10k upgrade if you want to bitch about city driving. Or... pay $10k for FSD to bitch about not being able to get FSD.

It was actually worse.

 

[Ogre]

It was actually worse.

FSD is IMO the biggest scab on Tesla's reputation.

So many promises over so many years and we're still in a rough beta.

They promised the impossible and have only delivered something (nearly) amazing. Weirdly disjointed.

I'm really worried that FSD is going to remain in this uncanny valley of good enough to do 99% of the job but bad enough that 1% of the time where you still need to pay attention.

 

[Crissa]

When a driver sees emergency lights, it's their job to slow down and move over a lane. This is not something Autopilot does ever. Thats not even in its design parameters.

It's something it does now, but that's a tough problem they're literally the only carmaker pushing that sort of object detection.

-Crissa

 

[SwampNut]

Here's the thing with the analogy to aircraft and boat autopilots, and why I think Tesla could lose big in court... For aircraft, there's a tremendous amount of training to start with. And then you need to be "checked out" for every individual aircraft, and the features of each one. I feel like I had to re-learn to drive for the Tesla, let alone for AP specifically. And I've been a vehicle nut since childhood, I will drive/ride anything, and have hundreds of hours of track and off-road time in dozens of vehicles. I don't feel comfortable letting most people drive my Tesla without a check-out.

AP took me weeks to learn. I think most people will view it as "takes care of itself," just like most people assume "auto pilot" means the boat/aircraft takes care of everything. Lots of boats have crashed on AP, it's something we talk about a lot. I have a few boating certifications and am certified to teach one level of boating class. I can tell you most people are simply clueless on the lines you draw between automation and human control.

The legal rationale will be "what a reasonable person would assume" about the product. Tesla will have a hard time finding people who understand AP.

 

[Ogre]

It's something it does now, but that's a tough problem they're literally the only carmaker pushing that sort of object detection.

-Crissa

I think it slows down, but it doesn't move over a lane.

But you are absolutely correct, nobody else has this kind of situational awareness in their driver assist technology (or seemingly even tries).

Fundamentally we have 11 incidents out of billions of miles of Autopilot driving (tens/ hundreds of billions??). Nobody else has that kind of milage on their driver assist. I suspect the difference is several of orders of magnitude less mileage on the nearest competitor.

 

[Crissa]

The legal rationale will be "what a reasonable person would assume" about the product. Tesla will have a hard time finding people who understand AP.

A rational person does not believe things which were never said or done. So no, that theory is bunk.

Moreso, it was a drunk driver. At no point is the car manufacturer at fault unless they said it could get you home safely while drunk.

-Crissa

PS, naming Tesla probably saved the bartender as they're not going to have the legal resources to fight a frivolous lawsuit alleging a crime.

 

[SwampNut]

A rational person does not believe things which were never said or done. So no, that theory is bunk.

Notice I didn't say anything about rational people, merely what the laws and the courts say and do.

 

[Ogre]

For aircraft, there's a tremendous amount of training to start with. And then you need to be "checked out" for every individual aircraft, and the features of each one.

It's been a while since I've flown, but I know this isn't fully true. You don't have to be certified for each individual aircraft in any structured way. I've joined flying clubs and popped into the cockpit of aircraft with no training aside from a quick walk around. I don't recall any specific sign off or endorsement for autopilot.

AP took me weeks to learn.

I mean sort of. I started with low expectations and worked my way up. This is going to be the case with any driver assist tech though. I drove a Subaru with it's lane keep for a weekend and never got used to it.

The legal rationale will be "what a reasonable person would assume" about the product. Tesla will have a hard time finding people who understand AP.

Yeah, hard to see where this might go in court.

 

[SwampNut]

No flying club I've been around will let you run off with a new aircraft you haven't flow before. There is no certificate, and it's mostly word of honor. Still, this is part of the training; to accept more training as needed. As a society we think cars need no training to start with, barely test proficiency, and then assume that someone who passed the minimal test yesterday can rent a 40' box truck today. Hence all the funny Uhaul crash videos.

We simply don't treat vehicles with any respect at alll.